Secrets in the City with Dr Katherine

CEOs and Psychopaths: Amy Jacobson on Emotional Intelligence

December 06, 2021 Dr Katherine Iscoe Season 1 Episode 11
Secrets in the City with Dr Katherine
CEOs and Psychopaths: Amy Jacobson on Emotional Intelligence
Show Notes Transcript

Amy Jacobson is an Emotional Intelligence expert from Perth, Western Australia.

Emotional Intelligence, put most simply, is helping people to have a healthier, more useful relationship with their emotions.

Amy explains why  we should dedicate more time to understand our emotions, especially in the workplace.

So, this episode is really about getting people to learn the foundations of humanity...

To realise how to bring that humility into the workplace and what they do...

But also how to be a great leader...

And how to be a great human being.


Important Links
Amy's Website
Amy's Instagram

TW: death

Dr Katherine Iscoe:


We're just going to go right into the secret. Are you ready?


Amy Jacobson:


I'm ready.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Whoo-hoo. So Amy, which secret did you decide on?


Amy Jacobson:


I decided on this secret, I feel like I'm not enough of a parent to my kids. I yell too much and I'm scared they will hate me when they're older.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Why did this one really, I guess, jump out at you?


Amy Jacobson:


I think, look, there's parts of it, I think from the yelling point of view, it's probably not so much the yelling that I'm worried about. I think though, I've got two kids and my daughter is 14, turning 15 in Feb, and my son just turned 13. So they're at those real prime teenage years. And I take my role as a mom, really, I think it's the most important role that I play in my life. And I think probably from the work that I do as well, I know how important those teenage years are and I have this real fear that what if I screw them up? What if what we are doing in these years puts my kids in therapy for the rest of their lives. What if I'm doing this wrong?


Amy Jacobson:


And I do have really close relationships with my kids, but you hear people say it all the time. And I know with my parents in those teenage years, I drifted off and there were even times when I really disliked my parents and I think that scares me. I just, I love being friends with my kids, but at the same time trying to be a good parent and we know with parenting, there is no right or wrong, but you've just got to give it your best shot. But I feel like it's one of those things you get one shot at and you just hope that you do it right.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


That's it. Do you think, and this is a two part question, do you think because of what you do as a career, or I guess one could say, even as a passion, with emotional intelligence, that you are hypersensitive to what you're going through, and second to that, maybe we can start with, can you describe a bit of what you do and why you love it so much?


Amy Jacobson:


Yeah, sure. So I specialise in emotional intelligence and human behaviour and it's something that has fascinated me since I was really young. So I always had a fascination with psychology and probably more criminal psychology to begin with, criminal and forensics.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Me too.


Amy Jacobson:


Yes.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Psychopaths are my passion.


Amy Jacobson:


I know, right? Because it always fascinated me how somebody's mind could be so messed up to do something like that. I think that's what really got to me. I'm like, how? How are they so different to us? And I did go down, I touched on the psychology path in my late teens, early twenties, and realized pretty quickly that I am a high visual kinesthetic person and I take on a lot it.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Well, you got to describe what that is.


Amy Jacobson:


Oh, okay. So a high visual kinesthetic person means that I make a lot of my decisions, my education, even buying, my communication, I learn through seeing things and that's the visual side, so actually seeing things and connecting, and kinesthetic is that relationship side, so that connection with other people. And what it means is that as I started to dabble in that psychology, and you read some of the messed up things that these will do, I visualise them being that visual person and to see images. And what happens is that embedded so significantly in my mind and the kinesthetic side of me then found it extremely hard to switch off. So I would go home after having a session doing some of my learnings in psychology and I could not stop thinking about it. And my connection to the people impacted and what was happening was just too strong.


Amy Jacobson:


And I thought, I cannot detach myself enough from this to be able to do this job well. So that's why I didn't go down that path. And I went into corporate world, which funnily enough, I went into insurance, which has very much that emotional connection as well because people are coming to you in some really bad situations. So I was fascinated with the mind, learned a lot about the mind through my career, my 19 years in corporate world and dealing with people in highly emotional situations. And what I found really fascinating about the EI side, when I started to dig deeper into it, and the timeline therapy, and the coaching and stuff, is the difference in an industry like insurance, when you're dealing with people in highly emotional states, even though you have a very technical mindset, the outcome is totally changed by how well you can actually connect with that person and how well you can deliver your emotional intelligence.


Amy Jacobson:


And that's what fascinated me. It fascinated me that I felt like there was this really big gap in workplaces and especially in the corporate world where the focus was so strong on strategic, and bottom line, and revenue and it was missing the thing that made such a huge difference to your strategy, and your bottom line, and your revenue, which is the emotionally intelligence. So these days, obviously I left the corporate world, but I still work heavily in that area. And I work with workplaces and individuals to be able to bring that emotional intelligence element in, not so much from a soft side, but more from a tough love side kind of thing, and show them how to apply it so that it does help them to increase their revenue. So it helps them to retain talent, so it helps them to improve their processes and their connections with their internal staff and their external staff.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I'm like writing down notes, because I have so many other questions to ask you. But one of the quotes that I love is people will forget what you say, but they'll never forget how you make them feel. And that sort of summarises, I think, what you're saying there. And would you say, I mean, 1960s, 1950s, no one talked about emotions or I don't want to say no one, but it was not really spoken about because it was sort of like the boss is a boss, and everyone below the boss was a minion, and it was home was home, work was work. You don't show your emotions, you suck it the F up and so forth. And now, but I still think that there's unfortunately a lot of businesses that work in that old school way where they don't understand that their people are their most valuable asset and to treat them humanely. And this is kind of what you're saying, it's that balance between tough love and also supporting your staff.


Amy Jacobson:


That's right. And I think it is the whole era I think that we've come about and realised that while we have that dictator leadership style, there is a time and place for that. And I truly do believe, there are times when we need to take on a dictator leadership style, but there are also plenty of times when we don't. And I think going back to those 1950s, 1960s, the only leadership style out there was that dictator leadership style and while that will achieve certain areas, it won't achieve everything.


Amy Jacobson:


And I think we are so much more open to it these days and we understand that there is a big difference in skillset between a technical role and a leadership role. And just because somebody is technically brilliant at what they do, it does not mean that they progress into a leadership role, because a leadership role is completely different skillset. So it's really getting people to learn the foundations of humanity, to begin with, like how to bring that humility into the workplace and what they do, but also how to be a great leader, how to be a great human being. And it doesn't matter which workplace you are in, if you are interacting with human beings then you are going to benefit from knowing how and why you're interacting with those human beings. So I do, I love what I do.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Oh, I can tell. And we sort of overlap in many of the things that we do because we're all about extracting the potential in people. But it's funny when you were talking about dictatorship, it kind of reminds me of your original secret, which is about parenting, is, how do you know when to be a dictator in a way and how do you know when to be supportive? And would you say that's some of the complexity of parenting, is, you want to be their friend, but you know that sometimes the worst thing that you can do is be their friend because kids don't have a developed frontal cortex. They're basically drunk all the time, let's just be honest here, they're kind of stupid. And I'm saying this from a personal experience, I was highly stupid until probably about three years ago, to be honest, but that's a different story. But getting back to your parenting, I mean, that must make it so difficult for you because when to be a dictator, when to be... Tell me more about that. When's the last time you had to be a dictator with your kids?


Amy Jacobson:


It is, it's really hard to draw that line. And I think, looking at my kids at the moment, I've, like many parents out there, have two completely different kids. Obviously I've one girl and one boy yet their emotions, their love language, their default modality is all completely different. So what works for one child does not work for the other. And I think, it would've been in the last couple of weeks that I had this conversation with my son because I do want to be best friends with him. We've got such a close connection, but having to be able to say to him at times, mate, this is when we have to be parents. I know you don't like it, but this is a parenting approach, this isn't a friend approach and we know that this is the best thing for you.


Amy Jacobson:


And I'm trying to even think what it was. I feel like it was actually around... Now that I was thinking, I think it was around where we live. We live in a bit of a semi rural area. So the chances of the kids being able to ride their bike to school or to do anything like that it's not really possible because we don't have footpaths or anything like that. Yet, my son is going to school with kids that live in highly suburban areas and they can ride their bikes to school and do all that kind of stuff. So having to be able to tell him, no, at times, that he can't do the same things that some of his mates are doing can be quite challenging simply because of where we live. And it's not safe enough, mate, we're in the middle of a semi rural area. There are no footpaths on there. You're going to get a punctured tire.


Amy Jacobson:


And in his mind he's going, it's fine. This person rides all these ways to school every day and they're fine mom every day. But it's like, okay, they're in a suburban area, you don't have to ride beside a freeway, they're a footpaths and things like that. So it is kind of, I feel like as they go into those teenage years, there are those real challenging things and we both know that their minds are changing. They're starting to create their own values, their own beliefs, they're having these defining moments. And these moments are that point where I've got to kind of weigh it up in my mind and going, which way am I pushing them here?


Amy Jacobson:


Because unless they understand why I'm doing this, this could be something that pushes them to the left, which is where we don't want them to go, but if they understand why then maybe they can process it and actually go to the right. So it's kind of, I guess it's a hard thing and it's a thing of losing that control as well, because I look at parenting and go, when they're younger, we are always around. We can stop them from doing silly things, we can protect them. But as they reach those teenage years, parenting is about educating them because we are not always going to be around and when we're not around, we want them to make smart decisions. So it's a very different parenting that you enter into it in those teenage years compared to those younger years.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Absolutely. If I could ask you from a very personal point of view, which I guess extrapolates into other parents, why do you think there's an innate desire to want to be their best friend? Not from a surface point of view, I mean, from a deep point of view, why is it?


Amy Jacobson:


I think it's because as human beings, we all like to be loved. We all like to be liked and loved, and we don't want our kids, we don't want anyone to kind of look at us and go, I don't like that person, or they've really upset me, or even worse, I hate them. To me, that could be the worst thing that could ever come out of my kid's mouth for them to say, I hate you. That would devastate me. And I think it does come back to, we know as human beings everything that we do is for an emotional feeling, everything we do in this world, every decision we make is because how it will make us feel. And I think that's the same with parenting in that we want to feel like a good parent and the way that we feel like a good parent is for our kids to love us. The way that we feel like a good human being is to be loved and I think it always just comes back to love. I really do.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


So here's where it gets challenging because I believe what we said before, especially when we're using dictator loosely, obviously in this context, but as a dictator, you need to guide the ship. You need to be that captain of the ship. And sometimes you need to say, I guess it's okay if you don't like me, because I know the outcome. And there's this stereotype or this water cooler conversations that good CEOs, that good bosses, have a touch of psychopathy, which means that it's kind of like the opposite of empathy. And you would know better than me in regards to the research on psychopathy's, their amygdala is less reactive and they don't see fear. So does this mean, and I'm throwing it out there, that to be a good boss, to be, I guess, decisive in those situations that you have to have a touch of psychopathy and maybe as a parent too?


Amy Jacobson:


Do you know what? I think you're right. I think you're right in that to be a great boss and to be a great leader, and it's funny because I see myself when I walk into an organisation and challenge CEOs or challenge that high level, that side of me does tend to come out at times probably easier than it comes out at home because I think our judgment levels at home as parents is very different to our levels of judgment when we're in a work environment. But I think a CEO or anyone in the workplace does need to have that element, whether it's the word psychopath or not, I'm not 100% sure. I don't know how that would go down. But you definitely do, you need to have that ability.


Amy Jacobson:


And look, one of the areas that I specifically teach when I go into organisations is that emotional intelligence is so important. Asking people, and encouraging them, and coaching them and getting them to own it is so key. But there are going to be times and there are going to be people that don't accept it, that aren't emotionally intelligent, that don't want to buy into it and do not own the role in that situation. And at those times I always go with an ask, ask, tell. And go with the first two stages, and I tend to do it with my kids as well, I will ask twice. I will ask them to do something, because I want them... We know that people are more likely to do something if it's their choice. So we ask once, we ask twice, we encourage, we use the right language, the right emotional undertone on our words and stuff like that. But after two times, if you continue to ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, you are, one, decreasing your credibility and the level of respect.


Amy Jacobson:


Whether that person likes it or not, their subconscious mind is just increasing that level of respect. So to be effective, you've got to know when to flick over from ask to tell. And that is that difference between... I say there's a type of leadership that I call BFF and like best friends forever, where you want to be loved, you want people to trust you and confide in you. But there is that time to maintain, it's that very fine line between being liked and being respected that you need to know, okay, I've asked twice, their subconscious mind is now telling them that the respect levels, the urgency, everything is decreasing, I've got to flick into tell. And I think great CEOs, great directors, and great parents know how to do that, know how to encourage, know how to boost, know how to build their kids emotional intelligence. But if that isn't working, they know that, okay, now this is what's going to happen, and you are going to do it for these reasons, and this is the outcome that we're looking for.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Oh my God. I could literally switch stop right now on this podcast because that is the greatest little tip ever and I know exactly how I'm going to use it after we finish this podcast. Brilliant. You touched on liked versus respected. And I wanted to touch on this simply because I used to do Friday debates and I used to say, one of them was, would you prefer to be liked or would you prefer to be respected? And it was something like a majority of 80% said respected. And I called bullshit on it because a majority of my followers are females. And I said, bullshit, because when the going gets tough, when you make a decision, oftentimes those decisions are based on, I need to make sure that this person continues to like me. So my question to you is, because obviously a majority of the listeners will be female, how do you make the transition between I really want them to like me, but I'm okay if they don't because I want to be respected? How do you make that transition over?


Amy Jacobson:


I think it is that switch. I think it's that switch between that ask, ask, tell, and it's what I do. It's probably, out of all programs that I run and all the hours of content sometime it's the one biggest takeaway that people will take from my sessions is simply that ask, ask, tell method, because when you're doing those first two asks, that is, I want to be liked. I'm saying this in a way, I'm working with you, I want you to own it, this is about what's in it for you, the value that's in it for you, give that person empowerment, give that person opportunity to shine. Even when you know what the answer is, you're feeding it to them so that it's their answer, so they're a winner. And that's where you could even change, you could even change it to like, like, respect, because that's basically what it is.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Oh my God, I have goosebumps. That's exactly it. Freaking brilliant. Now I want to touch on how does this whole thing affect self-worth, self-esteem, confidence? Because as I always say, it's kind of like a confidence paradox. You're going to feel highly unconfident while you build confidence. And that's kind of like this, is you're going to feel really, really crappy when you have to do the tell part, I think, until you feel a bit better doing it. Even just saying, tell, I'm like, oh, I don't know. But I guess I do it. I just do it automatically now. But I think I started to do the tell once I started to really believe in myself, because when I really liked myself, prior when I didn't like myself I wanted to be extremely validated. I didn't like myself, so I had to get other people to like me. Now, I actually really think I'm quite cool to be honest and [crosstalk 00:20:52]-


Amy Jacobson:


I think you're cool too.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Thanks. Thanks so much. We could be BFFs. But I think a lot of this, and I'm going to go down a rabbit hole here in regards to body image, everything is you do judge a book by its cover. Let's be honest here.


Amy Jacobson:


Absolutely.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Let's be honest here, we see it all day, every day, the Bella Hadid's, all the gorgeous people, they get front of the line, this and that. When we don't feel great about who we are and how we look, sometimes we want to get that external validation and we don't want to do the tell.


Amy Jacobson:


Look, I think, when we hit into that tell or that respect level, tell is never going to work unless we respect ourselves first. So you cannot flick into that tell mode unless you believe in yourself and you believe in what you're saying, because if you don't have that confidence that comes through in that tell, it's not going to be a tell, it's going to be another ask.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Oh, yes.


Amy Jacobson:


And you can hear it in yourself. And I'll give you two examples. I'll give you an example in a workplace, an example with my kids, because it's exactly the same concept. So if I was in a workplace and I went up to you in the workplace that said, Kat, can you do this report for me? I need it by tomorrow. And you went, yeah, Amy, no worries, I can do that. And I went, great. I walk away. And then I come to you the next day. And I say, Kat, have you got that report there for me? And you went, oh Amy, I'm so sorry, I totally forgot about it. Everything else came up, I'll do it for you now. This is my second ask. I go, great. That be awesome if you could do it for me now. I walk away.


Amy Jacobson:


I come back again a couple of hours later and say, Kat, have you got that report for me now? Now at that point, if you turn around to me and say, ah, something else came up, I'm halfway through it up, I'm nearly there. Now at that point, if I don't have the confidence in myself and the belief in myself that this is a priority and this is important and I turn around and say, oh, okay. Yep, no worries. If you can give it to me that'd be great. The minute I walk away then, your subconscious mind, whether you like it or not, is already saying that it can't be that high a priority if I've already got to this point. And this other thing coming at me urgent, this person that's yelling, this person that's going to demand it more, I'm going to do that first because, Amy, she's a bit of a pushover.


Amy Jacobson:


And whether you like it or not, your subconscious mind is going there. You could think you have the utmost respect for me, but instead at that point, the difference of me saying, oh, okay, no worries, if you can give it to me in a couple hours. The difference to me turning around and saying, Kat, I need you to stop what you're doing right now, this is your number one priority, nothing else gets done until this is done and I'm going to need it on my desk in the next half an hour. The difference between that is huge. But in order for me to be able to deliver that, I've got to have the confidence in myself, because if I don't truly believe that what I'm asking you to do is the most important, and that you should respect me, and that you know that I want this done, it's not going to work. It's really not going to work.


Dr Katherine Iscoe


It's kind of like authenticity, but with an edge.


Amy Jacobson:


Exactly.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I love it.


Amy Jacobson:


But I mean, you see the same with parents all the time. You see as a parent, we can be at home and say, okay, put your shoes on, we need to go in five minutes. And then you come back in a couple minutes and the kid's still play in PlayStation and they haven't put their shoes on. Put your shoes on, we need to go. You walk away. And then you come back again and they still haven't done it. At that point, as a parent, you're going to say, turn that off right now, get yourself to the car with your shoes and put your shoes on in the car. As opposed to going, you know what, I asked you, why are you still playing on the PlayStation? Like why have you not got your shoes on? So it's that fine balance, I think too, between kids, you hope, you hope that on those first two times that you asked that your child has enough responsibility and ownership and that they want to do it and that they're going to do it for themselves. But after two times, if they're not going to do it for themselves, that's when you need to parent and you need to tell them this is happening.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I love the two, because I think I've done it before, but I've done it like 20, 20 ask [crosstalk 00:25:26]-


Amy Jacobson:


Two is where I draw the line. I'm like done, two.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I love it. I remember doing that with my youngest stepdaughter. She would always put the air conditioning on. We have two zones and I'll go sit in the back and then she wouldn't close the doors or the windows. So I'm like, we're air conditioning all of Perth. And I asked her a couple times and I tried to explain. I said, this is our energy bill, this is what comes out of my pocket. And she wasn't getting it. So eventually I said, okay, the next time it happens, you are going to pay me $100 for every time that happens and here's why. Never happened again.


Amy Jacobson:


That's it.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Never happened again.


Amy Jacobson:


That's the ask, ask, tell. And I bet, in your mind you're thinking, why didn't I do that earlier?


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Yes. It's funny, after that, I have done it sooner and sooner, but that's the delicate balance of being a stepmom. It's like, when are you a mom, when are you a second mom? That's what my as step kids call me, a second mom. And because also, Dad's complex and I think that deserves an entire other podcast, for sure. So I'd love to touch on, I guess getting back into that self worth, self esteem, confidence, when you do, do that more tell, I need this done right now, do it right now, basically, I think some of the thoughts that are going through our mind and perhaps some of the emotions that are going through would be maybe feeling agitated, uncomfortable, who do I think I am, can we touch on some of those thoughts and how we can use emotional intelligence to accept those thoughts and not trying to push them away, but maybe learn from them rather than avoid them, if you could touch on that a bit?


Amy Jacobson:


So when it comes to emotions, I always say first and foremost, there is such thing as a bad emotion. Never, never a bad emotion. Fear is not a bad thing, anger is not a bad thing. Joy and happiness is not a good thing. It all comes down to the appropriateness and the severity level. So it's really looking at the situation and saying, is the emotion that I'm feeling appropriate for this situation? So as we know, if I touch on even that fear, that fear of going into that tell mode, you'd look and go, okay, is fear appropriate for this situation? Now, when we look at the emotion of fear, fear was put in place to stop us from doing really stupid things. Fear is there to stop us from killing ourselves, basically, from dying. It is like that elastic band vortex that kind of holds us back.


Amy Jacobson:


So it's okay to have fear, but then looking at the severity level, then we need to look and go, okay, and I always like to use a scale of 1 to 10, when you're going into a situation and you go, okay, I'm about to go into this situation and go into tell mode. And I don't like confrontation and I'm feeling fear. I'm feeling a bit fearful, I'm feeling a little bit anxious, or I'm feeling like my confidence level isn't there, or what right do I have to do this? I would look at that situation and say, do you know what? It's okay to feel those emotions. It truly is because you're going into a situation that humans generally don't like, which is confrontation. We know we don't like being told what to do and therefore us telling somebody else what to do is not going to feel good.


Amy Jacobson:


So I would say the first thing is own that emotion. Like 100% own it and decide, okay, is this emotion okay? And I would say 9 times out of 10, the emotion that surfaces for you in certain situations will be the right emotion. It's usually the severity level that we struggle with. So looking at a situation like that, I would be looking at it and recognising, and actually labelling that emotion to yourself first, to be able to go, okay, well, how am I feeling? I'm feeling a little bit fear, I'm feeling a little bit anxious. Why am I feeling that way? And being able to process it and go, okay, I'm feeling that way because this is not a situation that I go about all the time. It's not a comfortable situation, I don't do confrontation. But then I would look at it and go, okay, on a scale of 1 to 10, how big is this in the scheme of things?


Amy Jacobson:


So really looking at, if you are going into a tell situation, a fear or being anxious or something like that, from 1 to 10 this conversation should rank it about a 2 or a 3 for most people. Because you're not about to go into a physical fight, you're not fearful for your life, you're fearful for how you are going to make somebody feel and you're fearful for how you will feel after you make that person feel that way. So it's really being able to look at it, own that emotion, understand, am I feeling in the right severity? What severity level do I want to feel going into this situation? And then how do I control that? And controlling it, look, hands down, it's the hardest part of emotional intelligence. I really do wish there was a magic pill or something that I could give that would instantly help people to control their emotions, but it's really looking to go, okay, in order to control that emotion, I need to be able to justify it in my mind.


Amy Jacobson:


So why am I feeling this way and is it justified? What I'm about to say to this person, why am I saying it? What is the purpose of me saying it? What is the outcome that I'm looking to achieve from this? And I think, I had this conversation with my husband just on the weekend because our son was at the State Championships Basketball tournament. And I was saying to my husband that when you're watching your kids play sport or you're at a tournament, there is going to be a time where the ref is going to get it wrong. Like 100%, there is going to be a time where the ref is going to get it wrong. Because why? Because they're human. It's going to happen. But how you respond to it, it's not going to change the fact that they've made that call.


Amy Jacobson:


Is it right that they've made a wrong call? No. Is it fair? No, it's probably not. But you're reacting and saying it, or arguing it, or pushing the point is not going to change the outcome. So what outcome are you actually looking for from you reacting that way? And if I pull that back to that tell situation, I'd say the same thing. If you are feeling anxious going into a conversation where you're about to tell somebody something, ask yourself, what outcome are you looking for? Why are you telling them this? What is the purpose of it and does the outcome outweigh the impact you're going to have on them?


Amy Jacobson:


So it's really like with the kids it's looking at and going, yes, it might upset my kids, they might get a little bit teary, but it is the right thing because it's going to lead to X, Y, Z and that is more important. They're safety or us getting in the car and actually arriving somewhere on time is more important. Or the power bill is more important than them being upset with me for an hour over the fact that I asked them to close the window. So it's really being able to weigh up that severity level of your emotions, owning them, and then working out what is the purpose and outcome that we're looking for.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


When do you think is appropriate to be authentic with your feelings? IE, for example, if you have a team member that you're working with quite closely, and perhaps when you're just learning this ask, ask, tell, maybe on the first couple of times, is it appropriate to say, I wanted to let you know that this is very difficult for me to do, but I think it's going to be beneficial for the longevity of our relationship, I'm feeling very, I guess, scared and fearful to have this conversation, but I think it's important, is that appropriate to do and when and when not?


Amy Jacobson:


So I will stand by, authenticity and honesty will always be the right answer. Always be the right answer. I think that as human beings we jump conclusions all the time. And if the person, if you are not honest or if you are not authentic with a person that you are communicating with, or that you're going through this process with, their mind, if it does not have the answers, will make it up. They will make it up. They will make up some assumptions. And I don't think that it's not a downside to share that you are learning too. What I think it actually creates is respect. And instead of having that difference where, as a leader, you're up so much higher on a pedestal and the person is feeling inferior and looking at you and thinking, why are you doing it that way? Why are you making me feel that way?


Amy Jacobson:


To be authentic and say to them, do you know what? I'm learning this too, but I know that this is the outcome that we are looking for and that is why we are testing out to see if I do this, this, this, is that we can reach this outcome. And the greatest leaders out there will ask for that reflection, they'll ask for that feedback. So they'll let those people know this is uncomfortable for me, this is a really tough conversation for me as well, so let's work together on this. How do we fix it? And I think in all the leadership conversations I have, probably the one line that I would say to leaders over and over and over again when you're in those tough conversations is to simply ask the question, how do we fix this?


Amy Jacobson:


Because to go into any situation speaking at someone, it just doesn't work where the minute you open it up and say, let's not defend here. This is where we're at, I'm uncomfortable, you're uncomfortable, this is a crap situation. Nobody wants to be, no one wants to wake up in the morning and go, I have to go and have a termination conversation or I have to pull somebody up on their performance. Nobody wants to do it. So this is the current state that we're at, the future state of the outcome that we want is for you to be performing, for you to be happy in your job, for me to be happy, for all of us to kind of be empowered and grow, so how do we fix this and how do we actually do it?


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


So what I'm hearing from you is social status, make sure that it's equal and then also provide them with a feeling of safety, would you say? As in safety for future, you're not going to lose your job, but what I do need to have a conversation with you is this. I mean, that was truncated, but provide them with a feeling of safety. I did see some research in regards to the brain, how it interprets physical pain is co-located with where social pain is processed. So when a person is actually feeling under threat social, they will experience that as physical pain. Which kind of makes sense, because if you look from an evolutionary point of view, if you were lower on the totem scale, whether you're a Reese's monkey or gorilla or a human, the lower you are on that social scale, the less protected you are and the less food you're going to have. So it kind of makes sense. But getting back to that feeling of safety and perhaps social hierarchy, does that come to play with emotional language?


Amy Jacobson:


It does. So two big things there. The first thing, when I walk into workplace, the first thing I say to the people, the CEOs, to the directors that have brought me in is that any emotional intelligence session, there is no job to title. There is no status, there's no job title. Everybody walks through this door as a human being, which means that as a CEO sitting in the room, which I always stipulate, everybody should be in the program, there should be no exceptions, everybody should be there, but when you walk in the room you are not the CEO. You are Bob, you are Frank, you are Mark, whoever you are, you are there is a human being to work on yourself.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Can I get a hell yeah?


Amy Jacobson:


And that I think is the first thing that it comes to. The second thing that you were talking about, that level of safety is so important. And what I would say is that anytime you're communicating, the minute the person you were communicating with has gone into an emotional hijack and their fight or flight response has actually been activated, the conversation is pointless. You just want to stop it there. So if you are having some kind of confrontation or a tough conversation, and you have activated the fight flight response, what you have now is you have got a fight on your hand. It is going to be defence back and forth. That person is not going to hear anything you say, you are not going to hear anything they say, because both of you are in emotional hijacks and it is just going to be back and forth, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. And it's not going to be pretty.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


It's like point scoring. You're going to go into point scoring mode basically.


Amy Jacobson:


Yep, one up.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I love the saying, strike while the iron is cold. I thought that was a great way because you don't want to... Obviously the original saying is strike while the iron is hot. That's definitely not what you need to do when it to emotional conversations. Wait until either... And I've also provided some evidence in regards to what time of day to have potentially conflicting conversations. Do you know anything about that?


Amy Jacobson:


Yeah. So I go into the timings of the day, but do it more based on the person that you're actually providing the conversation to. So one of the big things that I think is important is that every single one of us takes feedback very differently, the same as we take praise very differently. So it's really understanding before you go into any conversation with somebody, understanding how they actually take feedback, what works best for them. Are they going to need to process it? Are they going to be naturally defensive when it comes into it? Are there somebody that needs it sugar coated, that needs a little bit on either side of it? Are they somebody that just wants it straight down the line? And I think once you understand the style of communication and the method that the person receiving it is all about, then you can actually put it into the time of day.


Amy Jacobson:


Because if you are delivering a message to somebody who requires time to process it and to be able to reflect and look at it, then to actually deliver that to them first thing in the morning, you've lost them for the day. Their mind is so deep in thought, they're processing what you've spoken about. They sitting there and they're getting distracted, they may even get frustrated based on it. It's not a good time. So for those people I would be saying, do it in the afternoon, give them a chance to go home, process it, thinking about it. Let's catch up again in the morning and go through it as well. Obviously a disclaimer in there, you want to make sure that they are psychologically safe and that you haven't done anything before you let them walk out the door.


Amy Jacobson:


Where same as if you've got somebody who is naturally an emotional person and is likely to get quite upset and a little bit tearing, which again, nothing wrong with that at all. That just means they're super passionate and their emotions are so much closer to the surface. To deliver a message to them first thing in the morning is the worst thing you can do because do you know what? Not even the message is going to be the worst thing for them, the fact that they are walking back out into a workplace where people can see that they've been crying, that is going to be worse to them than any message you've delivered. Where somebody who is a straight down the line or even a sandwich type person, a message like that is great first in the morning, because then they will actually, they'll have kind of this bounce off moment where they get that adrenaline hit in where they're like, oh, okay. And they want to get out and they want to test it out and show that they've taken what they've heard and they've actually put it into play.


Amy Jacobson:


So I think it does come down to the person receiving and I also think it comes down to that person's ultradian rhythms, going in with their cycles. So are they a morning person? Are they a nighttime person? Are they like myself who dips in the mid morning and then... Sorry, no. Peaks in the mid morning, dips at lunch and then peaks mid afternoon again. So to me, there is so much research out there, but I would always say it comes down to how well you know what makes that person tick and it should be different for every single person.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I guess these conversations really need to be DNA specific in a way, which is challenging when you're leading an organisation with a thousand people. One thing that I was thinking about when you were chatting was this whole thing about leadership and some leaders have been shown to have low levels of cortisol, which does many things in the body, one of them is react to stressful or distressing situations, and high levels of testosterone, meaning that they're ready for the fight, but they don't get stressed, so they can keep, I guess, a level mind. When I'm picturing that kind of leader... Sorry. One thing that I was thinking is, how do you lead a horse of water if they don't want to drink? Meaning, how do you teach a person like that, that emotional intelligence is so beneficial, not only for staff retention, but also your bottom line when they don't want to drink the Kool-Aid? How do you get a person to be emotionally intelligent when they are basically giving you a double middle finger when comes to this snappy stuff?


Amy Jacobson:


Simple answer, you can't. You cannot force somebody to be emotionally intelligent and you cannot force them to learn it. So you can read as many books as you want, you can go to as many programs, listen to as many podcasts as you want, but if you don't want to build it, you won't. You can sit in a room and you can listen to all of the skills on how to do it, but unless you choose to implement them, it's not going to work. Now, two things here. The first thing I would always say is I truly don't believe that there is a person in this world that is emotionally intelligent. And I'll tell you why. Because I think that what we do is we learn the skills to be emotionally intelligent in a situation, but there are always going to be times when we are not emotionally intelligent.


Amy Jacobson:


I teach this kind of stuff and I am not emotionally intelligent 24/7. My kids will vouch for it, my husband will vouch for it. There are going to be times when we are not emotionally intelligent, but what we have is the skills and the ability to choose in the situation whether we respond in an emotionally intelligent way, so that's the first thing. The second thing is, even though somebody does not want to learn it themselves, if the people around them are emotionally intelligent, that are dealing with them and working with them, then they can still get a great outcome a lot of the time, not every time. But they can still get an outcome if the people that are actually dealing with them are emotionally intelligent.


Amy Jacobson:


So I'll give you an example. I'm huge on emotional profiles. I think that when we go into the workplace everybody kind of knows everybody's technical profiles. They know what you're capable of, they know your qualifications, your experience, they know what sign off limits you have. Yet, the emotional profile we don't put as much of an emphasis on. And when I was in corporate world, every time I had a new leader or I had a new stakeholder or somebody working with them, what I would do straight away is I would share my emotional profile with them. So I would say to my new leader, this is what my makes me tick. This is the type of praise that really works for me, this is the type of feedback that works for me, this is why I come to work, this is my emotional driver, this is my modality that I have, if you want to really motivate me and get the most out of me, then here's the best way to approach it.


Amy Jacobson:


So even though, regardless of whether that person was emotionally intelligent or not, I shared my emotional profile with them to say, this is what's going to work for me. And I think so often when we choose not to do that, we have these expectations on other people, expectations on our leader. Like people going, well, my leader's shit, my leader doesn't do this, and my leader doesn't give me praise, and my leader's a micromanager. And I'll always say to them, what role have you played in this? Does your leader know what type of praise that works for you? Does your leader know this? Have you spoken to your leader about communication? Because naturally if your leader is not emotionally intelligent, they will do things in the way that it works for of them. There is always a part that you've got to own and that is, what effort have you made?


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Love that.


Amy Jacobson:


What contribution have you made to this conversation? That's where that tough love comes in. I think EI is not about the soft stuff. For me, it's not about a four year old's birthday party where everyone's a winner. This is about stand up and own it. Stop with a victim, stop with the blame, stand up and own the part that you are playing in this situation.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Absolutely. Oh, I love that. One of the reasons why I asked that question was, when you said, when you do workshops everyone comes into the room and everyone's just to human, there's no titles. And in my mind I was just sort of picturing some of the leadership team, and when I say leadership, as in the high tiered executives, coming in there, regardless of gender and sort of crossing in their arms. That defensive, who does she think she is coming here to tell us how we're meant to feel? And have you ever experienced that? And remember, a lot of this stuff has to be top down. This whole thought of do as I say, not as I do, that shit doesn't work. So how do you change an organisation when the top dogs and doggette's are sitting there with their arms cross? How do you deal with that?


Amy Jacobson:


So have I ever experienced it? Yes, every session. There is always someone every single session that I roll out. And do you know what? That's my challenge. From the minute they walk in the room, I can see which ones are my challenge and in my mind, I say, I have succeeded in this session if that person walks out of the room with an aha moment. Even if they don't take it all in, if I can see in their face at even one point they went, holy shit. They kind of clicked in and they realised, then I've succeeded. So for me, as I said, there are always those people that come in and I recall doing a session, it was for a charity actually. And when I walked in the door, the lady that had booked me, she said, Amy, there's going to be couple of people in the senior exec team that aren't overly excited about this session. I said, that's fine. That's fine, I'm used to this. And she said, oh, they're actually my boss, one of them is my boss.


Amy Jacobson:


And I went, okay, okay. And she said, we'll see whether you can guess who they are. So everyone came in the room and before the session started, she walked up to me and she said, can you guess? And there's about 65, 70 people in the room. And I pointed straight at him. I said, that's him there. And she went, oh my God, that is him. How did you do it? I went, okay. I said, that's fine, that's fine. Anyway, I could see he walked into the room with that whole, this is rainbows and lollipop, she's going to make us hug it out, this is going to be terrible. By the end of the session, he was the last person to leave the room and he came and spoke to me for 15 minutes post the session.


Amy Jacobson:


And the reason being is that when I have someone like that in the room, I will make sure that my language is aligned to the way that they work as well. And it's so important for people in high profile roles and I do find myself when I throw a question to the audience or a challenge, that I will challenge these people to say, really, are you sure about that? Give me detail. Just to kind of blow out that, take them out of their ego and bring them back into the reality to really be able to question it. And where I've seen it be so successful is those CEOs or those people that do come in. And as I said, this guy at the end was like, just so open. And the lady that organised came up to me, she said, I'm blown away. And I said, but the difference is, is that these people, when he walked in the room he didn't understand what emotional intelligence was. And now the things that are frustrating him the most in the workplaces, he's now walked out realising that's actually EI that's frustrating him and that's what can fix him.


Amy Jacobson:


So I think being open to it and making sure that I adapt my language so that they hear it in a way that makes them click. If I'm doing a room full of engineers, I won't use the word self-awareness. That word won't even come out of my mouth because as an engineer they're going to look and go, what? I am not sitting here listening about self-awareness. So it is adapting it and I think EI can do that because it's adaptable to any person, any person in this world. So as long as you can, again, comes back to that understand what makes people tick, as long as I can read the room and I can work out who was in the room, how do they need to hear this, what kind of challenge do they need, what kind of word, what kind of language, and that means that if I've connected them, I've done my job.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Gosh, that's beautiful. I was just sort of thinking, obviously with our technology company we have machine learners and all that, I was sort of thinking that you could promote emotional intelligence as almost like artificial intelligence, which is machine learning that you keep on learning. But when it comes to what makes you tick, because I know we're going to speak for about another 16 hours after this, I want to know what makes you tick and perhaps, do you have a personal story or maybe a story that you haven't shared with anyone? Whether it has to do with emotional intelligence or just has to do with what makes you tick, maybe a secret of the past that you've turned into a lifelong lesson that you could share?


Amy Jacobson:


So I had a really big think about this, actually, this has been a challenge for me. And I think it is because I am such an open, transparent person. I don't have a lot of filters on me so usually when I have something, I don't have a lot of secrets because I share them straight away. I just get too excited or I'm that person that laughs at myself when I fall over. So I would say probably one of my deepest, I'd say my deepest struggles, a bit of a secret and it's funny because I was speaking to Tor, who's a lady I work with, about this morning, is I find it extremely hard to comprehend death. I struggle. I have a fear of death. I have a fear and it's funny because we dug into this morning.


Amy Jacobson:


I have a fear of unexpected death. And even to this day, even on the weekend, we had one of my daughter's friends over, who's also a family friend and she lost her mom a couple of years ago tragically to brain cancer. And on Sunday I found out another friend unfortunately has been diagnosed with brain cancer as well. And I find the whole area around death extremely hard to process in my mind because I look at this beautiful girl on the weekend, I still find it hard to believe that her mom is not here and not coming back. This girl doesn't have a mom. And I think to the people, even things I hear on the news where I heard yesterday about those four kids that passed away in the house fire in Adelaide. And I find it really hard to comprehend, but how? How are they never going to be here again?


Amy Jacobson:


And I think it does come back to that fact that for a living I am such an optimist, as a person I am such an optimist, and I truly believe that in everything that I do, I say to people, if you want something bad enough there's always a way. But with death, there's not. Once somebody's gone it's so infinite, it's so done. And that fixer in me and that person that even failure for me, I honestly believe in myself that I don't ever fail because fail to of me is quitting and I don't ever quit. There's always a way to tweak, to learn, to try, to go again, except when it comes to death. And I just really struggle with it. I struggle with it, as I said, whether I know the person or not and it scares to live in daylights out of me.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


So what you're saying is it regardless of it whether it's someone you know or not, and also yourself? Do you struggle, if I may ask, with your own death? Well, from the day we're born, we're already dying.


Amy Jacobson:


Yeah, absolutely struggle. I think I'm one of those people that's always said, I'd love to get a letter from the queen at a hundred. I really would. And I think it's that I don't like missing out on anything. So what happens when I die and I'm missing out on things? That's me having a bit of fun about it, but I know when I've had people... Look, and I think I've been quite sheltered from death for quite a while and the last couple of years have been quite challenging, we've had some people close to us die and quite unexpected. And at those moments, I found myself absolutely falling apart. Falling apart not so much because I was super close to these people, but just falling apart because I cannot process it in my head. It's just like, how? How is it possible that then they won't be here anymore or they won't be around?


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Mostly from an exist... I can never say this word, existential point of view or is it from a psychological point of view? Like, you don't understand that they're gone and they're not going to be able to experience stuff. I guess, see, I'm a fixer now. I'm trying to fix the situation. I'm like, let's go deep.


Amy Jacobson:


You're like, I can help you Amy.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I can help you. I guess the reason why I'm struggling with it is because I actually don't have any issue with death. And I know the reason why it's because my father is a respiratory neurophysiologist, from a very young age I remember this like clear as day, when I was about five or six years old, we were on a road trip, he pulled over, there was some roadkill, it was a porcupine, and he pulled over and then he took my brother and I to look at this animal that the innards were everywhere. And he was like, that's the liver, that's the intestines. And nowadays it would be like, call child services. Whereas I was like, holy shit, that's so cool. And even when I stub my toe nowadays, all I think is, oh, that's my nerves talking to each other. Or when I really, really want another piece of cake, I just think, oh, that's dopamine.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


And so I have this very passive way of looking at the body and when my dad and I speak about death, we just think, okay, it's just cellular apoptosis. And I remember asking him about the white light. And he was like, oh, that's just energy. That's just the admittance of energy. And when I spoke about what do you want to do when you die, dad? Is there anything I need to know? And he's like, no, I'm fine. Just get my organs everywhere, just don't give my eyeballs. Like, eyeballs? It's just, it's very passive. We just sort of think death is death and that's it. Whereas you, and this just shows how conversations need to be DNA specific, I find death very interesting, it scares the shit out of you.


Amy Jacobson:


And I think that the logical part of my mind, I've got my organs are being donated, I've got the process, I've got it in my will on how everything does. So it's like, I know it's going to happen, but I think it's that emotion brain in me that goes, but what do you mean we're never going to see them again? Surely they're going to walk in the door one day or I just find it really hard to comprehend how definite it is. And I think the only thing I can put it down to is the fact that... Because my elderly family that has passed away or when older people passed away, I can comprehend that. I'm like, yeah okay. But I think it's that emotional response that I struggle with and that part will... I always say, well, maybe if that didn't work, then let's just rewind and try again and try doing it this way.


Amy Jacobson:


And even, I know it sounds crazy, but sometimes I'll watch a movie and I'm shocked that they didn't learn from the first time I watched it. How did this happen again? Well, that's my girl. I'm like, dude, the last 15 times that I've watched it, you know by now not to go near the bees, just leave the ring there. How did you not learn this time? And I think that's just that messed up part in my mind that thinks that and maybe that is that fixer where I just think there's always something to learn from a situation and you can learn it and not repeat it. Yet, that doesn't work. When those instances happen it's just, it's devastating. And I think it scares me in that you cannot prepare for it. You cannot, I feel like it doesn't matter how I live my life. It doesn't mean that I might get in my car this afternoon and end up in a car accident and that scares the shit out of me. Like, I don't have the control.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I was just about to say, so let me ask you a question. If you were to radically accept this inability to control a situation, what would your life look like? Picture yourself in a situation where you radically accept that this one aspect is out of your control. How would your life change?


Amy Jacobson:


I think that in most situations with that inability to control it, I'm okay. Because when I can't control this situation, I look internally and I say, I cannot control this situation, but I can control how I respond in this situation. But again, with death, I can't control how I respond either.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


What if you were to radically accept after we go, we hit end on this podcast, and you say, from this point forward, I'm going to radically accept that I can't control the inevitable, how would that change your life?


Amy Jacobson:


Look, I don't think a lot would change in my life because I feel like I live a great life. I enjoy and I always find good moments. For me, it probably is that, look, it comes back to those core fears. Which I teach this kind of stuff, which is crazy. But it does come back to that fear of control. But if I can get past that, it does come to that fear of missing out and fear of not getting to have those emotional times.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Why does that bother you?


Amy Jacobson:


But there is nothing that's going to change that.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Why does it bother you so much if you were to miss out on something?


Amy Jacobson:


I don't know.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Why do you think you don't know? Or do you think you don't know or do you think you just haven't found the answer yet why it bothers you? When's the last time that you did miss out and whether you saw it on social media or when you were a kid, when you weren't invited to a party, for example, did that ever happen?


Amy Jacobson:


Yes, I guess. I mean, it comes back to that love. Everything comes back to love, doesn't it? That's crazy.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


All you need is love.


Amy Jacobson:


I know.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


So do you remember a time that you were left out of something?


Amy Jacobson:


Yeah, I do. I mean, there's been plenty. There's been plenty through my life that I've been left out on and there's even those times where I do. I guess, more what I feel like I can miss out on is it's the emotional feeling, it's like I crave those emotional feelings.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Have you ever been in a situation with someone that is close to you that you haven't been able to get that emotional connection with?


Amy Jacobson:


No, not too much. No, I wouldn't say so. And I think maybe that is in that, as we were saying before, I'm a high kinesthetic person and I think I was joking at a session the other week to the point where if I'm even going to buy something, I won't buy something of somebody that I don't emotionally connect with. If I was in the market for brand new house and the house that I really loved and really wanted, the person selling it, the real estate agent was terrible and I didn't connect with them, I would struggle to buy that house off them. I would probably buy the house that I like the second best if I really connected with that person. I think for me, emotional connections are just such a huge part of my life and something that it's my number one dopamine hit, is that emotional connection with anything. So the thought of losing an opportunity or losing years or losing time to be able create those emotional connections, that's what I can't comprehend.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Would you say it is at all tied to a feeling of loneliness, like the fear of missing out, not having that emotional connection or that emotional feeling, if you will, when you were thinking into your past, if there was a situation that you did miss out, did you feel alone at that time?


Amy Jacobson:


No, I don't feel alone. I would say, maybe I didn't have that feeling of being liked enough. I think it would probably more come back to that or that feeling of being liked and loved enough to be invited, but never really alone as such. I think it more comes down to that interaction with others than it comes down to myself or my feelings. I mean, I'm the same as everyone, I have times when imposter syndrome kicks in or my confidence can take a hit or anything like that, but I'd say they're more minor, they're very few and far between. Where my weightings on relationships with other people and how other people feel is a lot higher. A lot higher.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


So would you say the core of emotional intelligence and emotionally intelligent relationships would be a sense of belonging?


Amy Jacobson:


Yes.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


It is really important, it sounds to me and the opposite would be kind of feeling disconnected, I guess, defused from people. And I think that's really what I got from today is at the core of it, whether you are a CEO or a parent or a dog who is sitting here asleep, like right next to me, almost needing to touch me, we just want to feel like we belong?


Amy Jacobson:


Yeah, I think you've absolutely nailed it. It is that sense of belonging. It's that sense of the sense of purpose of why are we here and are we living up to it? Do we belong? Do we belong within ourselves and also belong within the people around us, in the environment and the world. And I love that.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


It's pretty simple at its core and yet, I was hearing something the other day, we have such a simple life, why do we complicate it? At the end of the day, it's just about belonging, being nice to each other.


Amy Jacobson:


That is so true. And I have a value that runs through everything that I do and it is simplicity. I think that we just, we naturally overcomplicate things and the more that we can strip things back to that simplicity, whether it's in our communications, in our conversations, in our processes, in our lives, everything that we do, the more simple we can make it the better, the outcome for everyone, for our minds, for our bodies, for the environment, for the organisation, whatever it is, simplicity just will get us there.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


I love it. And what a great way to end this conversation. Amy, it's been amazing. I do want to ask, people are bound to want to get in touch with you and whether that's just from sending a message to say, wow, this really connected, to a corporation who wants to get in touch for your services, where is the best way to get in touch?


Amy Jacobson:


The best way would be to head over to my website. And my website is findingyoury, with just the letter Y, so findingyoury.com.au. And you'll find all my social media connections there or you can send us a message through there. My phone number's on there and I love a chat. So feel free to pick up the phone and call me at any time.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Brilliant. We'll make sure to put in all those links and especially on the website, I'm going to do a bit of a shameless promotion of your book, which I have yet to read, Emotional Intelligence, which I know is getting massive amounts of praise. We will put in all those links. And Amy, I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, emotionally, I want to say thank you so much for your time. It has been an absolute privilege and an honour to extract so much incredible action orientated information from you. And I can't wait to see you again soon.


Amy Jacobson:


Thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing. And I feel like I even got my own little counselling session out of the back of it. Now I'm thinking, I'm going to process this. I'm like, yes, I love this approach. So thank you so much, Dr. Kat. It's been absolutely my pleasure.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


My absolute pleasure. And my bill will be in the mail for that counselling session.


Amy Jacobson:


Beautiful.


Dr Katherine Iscoe:


Wonderful. Thank you.