Secrets in the City with Dr Katherine

Sick of icky sales? Julia Ewert “The Negotiator” teaches FBI negotiation skills so you can level up in business and life.

February 07, 2022 Dr Katherine Iscoe Season 2 Episode 2
Secrets in the City with Dr Katherine
Sick of icky sales? Julia Ewert “The Negotiator” teaches FBI negotiation skills so you can level up in business and life.
Show Notes Transcript

Sales and Negotiation. Two words that I don’t particularly love. But for my next podcast guest - they’re her jam. Julia Ewert is dubbed “The Negotiator” and she’s renowned for her ability to win business, without the ick-factor (aka that hard-sell sales pitch we all hate).


Her system combines world best practices, including FBI negotiation tactics (fascinating, right?!) to ensure you have clients for life, at full margin. I know you’ll love her gutsy and confident approach to business. 


But there’s more to Julia than her title as “The Negotiator”, incredible track-record and client testimonials. You’ll have to listen in to hear Julia and I unpack her secret of feelings of inadequacy, finding a sense of belonging and childhood bullying’s ripple effect into adult life.


I can’t wait for you to listen to this episode that is jam-packed (yes I’ve included jam twice in this caption) with real-life examples and techniques that you can apply directly into your business, today. 


Happy listening x


Julia Ewert Website - https://juliaewert.com/

Julia Ewert LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliaewert-thenegotiator/ 

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Hello, everyone. This is the second time me recording this introduction because Gabby is laughing at me. I'm not sure if you can hear her in the background, because I couldn't remember what episode we are on, but this is season two, episode two. And let me tell you, thank you so much for being here. This is Secrets in the City. I'm Dr. Katherine Iscoe. I'm, as always, incredibly proud to be your host. And the way we've described this podcast in the past is using compassion to turn stories of our past into life changing lessons for the future. But I got to say, this podcast has really evolved over time, and I think it's because of the incredible expertise and wisdom of my guests and what this is, I think, turning into is almost like a lesson, almost like the university of life. There's so many skill that I have learned through this podcast and immediately applied to my life. And I hope this is also the case for you.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Now this is especially... I'm laughing because the next topic is one that I avoid, which is sales and business, I fricking hate it. I hate it with a passion because all I want to do is hug people and help them be better versions of themselves. I just don't like it. There's something about it that just seems icky. And that's why I'm really interested and can't wait for you to hear my next guest, Julia Ewert, because she is dubbed The Negotiator. She actually uses FBI tactics to help people gain trust when they're in the sales process. And I thought, gosh golly, this is so interesting, and it actually reminded me of a class during my postgrad in counseling. And we were talking about trust, trust between the counselor and the client, and interestingly, my prof gave this example of when someone was about to harm themselves and a negotiator came in and the conversation between them, get this, took over eight hours and the negotiator successfully helped this person not harm themselves.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
But what's more interesting than that is that negotiation was used to help a person heal, to be a better life. And the long of the short of the story is, the person ended up going back with their family, doing a lot of work on themselves, ended up being an amazing father raising two girls. So negotiation, I think is so useful to look at in this context because oftentimes we equate sales to the ick factor because we believe that we're taking something from another person. And this really helped me look at sales a different way, because if you're an academic listening to this, especially, I think you're going to resonate because we have gone to school for what felt like an eternity. I think I was in school for a total of 13 years. And because it's such a gradual process, you just think, well, of course, everyone knows this. Everyone knows glucose regulation. Everyone knows how the heart works or when it comes to confidence, the key neural ingredients of go confidence, of course, everyone knows this.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
But the fact is, is we need to, especially I think as women, value our knowledge. And I know whenever I go to counselor or when I go to get my skin... Basically getting your skin clean. But when I go for my skin maintenance at my girlfriend Jane's, the reason I don't even think twice about paying for a good facial, because it's their expertise is helping me. So I really invite you guys to come into this podcast with an open mind and think maybe, just maybe, selling is actually nothing to do with money. It's the exchange of value. So listen up, put those headphones in, if you're walking, get ready for really energizing conversation.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
All right. Well, Julia, thank you for being here. And I'm going to dive right in. What is the secret that you have selected?

Julia Ewert:
Despite my achievements, I still feel inadequate.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Right. And why did that one pop out to you?

Julia Ewert:
Well, I looked through the list, Kat, and there was... This one probably was the closest, it hit home for me the most. And it is of course the psychology background, and that we carry a lot with us today from when we were children. And for me, it really hit home because I was a kid, I was bullied through all my schooling. So I was often given the message of "You're a loser. You won't amount to anything. You'll be going nowhere fast..."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Is this from everyone or just your peers at school?

Julia Ewert:
Kids, couple of teachers thought they'd get in on it too. In primary school, I never had a best friend. I didn't have a talent, one great thing that made me amazing, I didn't have any of that. I had a brother with something different about him, so I was bullied by association and kids can be jerks, right?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Julia Ewert:
I was also a super unattractive child. So just a winning combination there.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Says who about the not attractive?

Julia Ewert:
Said all the kids, because kids know. So this is just all the words that were delivered to me over time. So this is the reason I chose that secret.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So do you think if you didn't have that background, would you have chosen the secret that you did today?

Julia Ewert:
Hard to say, isn't it?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah, I guess that's the thing. We go down that sort of choose your own adventure kind of thing. So tell me more about, obviously, what you do and how that weaves into the secret that you chose and all this kind of good stuff.

Julia Ewert:
So, I don't regret anything that happened in my childhood either, I a hundred percent believe that that's what's shaped me to be the person I am now. I'm 43, and I absolutely believe that's what's shaped me. So now I'm the director of my own company, I'm a professional negotiator and I'm a sales strategist.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay. I want to hear more about negotiation.

Julia Ewert:
Oh, everyone does.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Oh, well, you probably have explained this ad libitum, but I know you have a bit of a... You use a bit of FBI weaved through there and I'm going to sit back and relax and enjoy this, if you don't mind.

Julia Ewert:
It's a fascinating topic and Kat, I'm a junkie for what I do. I'm obsessed with my work. It is my hobby, it's the area I'm most interested in, I'm fascinated by it. So essentially to put it into context of what my business does, I do two things. So the best way for me to describe what I do is, I've worked for some of the biggest companies in the world who have spent millions of dollars researching and implementing sales process, not training, but sales process. And I've developed a repeatable system that businesses can use and they can learn it once, and it brings them in clients for life.

Julia Ewert:
In addition to that, I'm also a professional negotiator, which is what makes people go, ooh, that's interesting. And I'm using some of the same principles that the FBI are using when they negotiate with hostage, terrorist, and in crisis situations. And interestingly, some of the people that I'm learning skills from are connected with the FBI, and a lot of the stuff that I read is all written by people who are FBI or ex-FBI. And what's really fascinating about it is that the techniques that these FBI negotiators are using when they're talking in the most serious of situations are techniques that we all have hiding in plain sight, and they're the same techniques that we can use.

Julia Ewert:
So this sales process that I teach is based on two things, world's best practice on sales process and these FBI negotiation and skills. And this is a proven system that helps businesses to win more clients more often, and for more margin. Some people just want to learn the negotiation, so this is a program that I teach to help people supercharge their leadership, or simply just to improve or enhance how they influence.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Right. Okay, so I want to ask you something because in regards to sales and negotiation, a lot of our listeners are women. A lot of my listeners, I know, because I have a touch of it as well, that they look at sales as icky.

Julia Ewert:
Oh, yeah.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
And so what can you say about that? And have you ever been in a position, perhaps in a past life, where you did feel a bit icky when you're selling something?

Julia Ewert:
So it's really interesting that this is definitely a perception. And just on the weekend just past, I had an interaction myself with someone selling me something, but it didn't go so great. I said to the sales person, "You and I work in the same industry, which is sales. This is the most hated profession in the world. So we have to work extra hard." So I said, "You can't afford for things like this to happen because now I walk away thinking that's why sales people are viewed this way."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Ooh, tell me, can you tell me how it went?

Julia Ewert:
He was receptive, but interestingly, in some of the principles I'm sure that we'll talk about today, Kat, will come out, but it's really frustrating because... I guess just to backtrack one moment, so the two reasons I stand for what I do is that I want businesses to accept sales and negotiating as essential business skills. These are essential.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
You can't help people if you're broke. You can't run a company if you're broke, so absolutely.

Julia Ewert:
Hundred percent. And the second principle is, I genuinely want people to be doing sales and negotiating using trust-building, humanized principles. No BS, no tricks or manipulation, nothing to do with what people think when they hear sales. It's actually not necessary and that stuff doesn't belong because it's not 1980 anymore.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
No, it's not like... What is that show, Mad Men?

Julia Ewert:
Yeah.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
When you're sort of pushing things that you don't want and so forth. That's how I've come around is, I think especially coming from the world of academia to the world of business, you come from this whole thought that, oh, doesn't everyone know what I know? In regards to 13 years at school, of course everyone knows the formula for blood glucose regulation. So why would I have to get someone to pay me money for that? And it was a massive transition, you had to value your experience. And do you think that's part of it that makes sales a lot easier? When you actually value what you do, it's easier to ask someone to pay you money?

Julia Ewert:
Well, I actually think it comes down to that people in business believe that sales is this mystical, magical, icky thing that no one wants to talk about. It's like the poor cousin, no one wants to talk about them or be associated, but we all know that they're still part of the family. Sales is necessary, right? It is necessary. No sales, no money. And interestingly... So I specialize in professional services, so I work with lawyers, tech companies, lots of consultants and coaches, engineers, architects, building companies, construction. So not transactional sales, it's different, but I have this deep belief that everybody gets into business for generally one of two purposes, sometimes by circumstance. But people start their own business because I genuinely believe, Kat, they have a passion or a talent. And what I suggest is that you don't get to do your passion or your talent unless you can get someone to pay for it, or you're doing it for free.

Julia Ewert:
You do it for free, that's not a very sustainable business model, it's a terrible strategy. So sales is necessary. So if you can do it in a way, like negotiating, same sort of thing, people very much misunderstand negotiating as well. They believe negotiating is harsh, manipulative, it's only relevant when there's money involved. That's a tiny part of it. But these are everyday skills, so if you can use them in a way that is natural and normal, it makes a huge difference. So I get asked all the time, "Do I need to overhaul my personality to be in sales and negotiating?" No. And anyone telling you you need to is lying.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I was just about to ask you, where do you think confidence plays into sales?

Julia Ewert:
It does play a part, hundred percent, but I do believe the lack of confidence is because people in business simply haven't been shown the right way to do sales. They're winging it. And if you wing it, you won't win it. They're doing sales by accident. Because no one's showed them there's actually a way to do this stuff properly that doesn't feel weird, it doesn't feel horrible.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Isn't that funny? Because oftentimes you think, well, I should know how to do this. I run a business, therefore I should know how to sell a product. But I always say that confidence is like brick stacking. You need to learn something to be able to be more confident in applying that thing. So the genius is in the doing, not just the thinking, but you need both. And if you've never been taught how to sell something, of course. So all the listeners out there probably are doing a bit of a face palm right now going, well, of course I hate doing it. Never been taught.

Julia Ewert:
And it's interesting because I'm working with some multimillion dollar businesses, some billion dollar corporations, some of them, and even them sometimes go, "Oh Julia, we don't sell anything." I go, "Okay, how's that working out for you?" "What do you mean we're in sales?" "Yes, you're in sales, just because you're an engineer. Of course you're in sales, everyone's in sales." But it is necessary.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's a necessary... I don't want to say evil-

Julia Ewert:
Not an evil, you nearly said evil, I heard you there.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah, no. I caught myself.

Julia Ewert:
It's necessary.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's necessary. So interesting that you selected the secret that you said you haven't really accomplished anything, you haven't gotten far enough, which has to do with, I think, a lack of belief.

Julia Ewert:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yet you are teaching people how to really believe in themselves and learn the skills to be able to... As I always say, you can't sell something that you don't believe in and if you don't believe in yourself, you can't sell anything. So now I'm trying to make the connection between here you are in this I guess, field that has all to do with confidence and understanding and skills. And yet you don't feel as a person, that you're really that far. Make the connection for me.

Julia Ewert:
Well, it's interesting because when I was getting bullied through my schooling, Kat, and I'm a crier. I'm 43, I'm still a crier, man. I cry. It's simply for me, it's a physiological response for me. It's not that I'm sad, I just cry. So if someone challenges me on something and I'm frustrated, I'll probably cry. I'd have say, "Please, I'm crying not cause I feel sad, it's simply how my body responds." I hate that about me, but it's a thing, it's fine.

Julia Ewert:
But when I was younger and I was being bullied, I didn't have the words. So I would stand there, because the there's the flight, fight or freeze. I would freeze and I would stand there while kids were doing hideous things to me, tears streaming down my face, but frozen like my feet were stuck in mud. I could not budge. And I could not find the words even to say anything, I couldn't speak.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Right, okay. I'm making the connection now.

Julia Ewert:
So now I speak for a living. Man, I've got all the words. So it's very different now, but I went through a very long time of that frustration of... It's that classic "if I knew then what I know now," all that sort of stuff, I'd go back in time and here's what I'd say to them. But I was constantly emotionally beaten down with this messaging of you are a loser and you won't go anywhere, you won't amount to much. I went to uni as an adult because I wondered if I'd be smart enough to get a degree. I just wondered if I was, and funny enough I was.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Who would've thought.

Julia Ewert:
Who would've thought.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Interesting because I'm thinking about all the listeners and maybe they're thinking regardless of whether they're knowledgeable in the art of negotiation or anything, but negotiation is sort of every day, all day. I mean, if we look at teenagers, man, teenagers are great at negotiation, like, "Oh I've had one piece of chicken, don't I need dessert now?" They have this ability. But I think in regards to bullying, I can see that now that almost you felt this weakness and now you want to have this skilled strength. That's how I look at it.

Julia Ewert:
So I am a thousand times stronger now than what I was, no question. I still cry, but that I actually don't think that's a weakness, that's just... I'm just accept that's how my body responds. But I'm much stronger now. I have the words and I teach people to also win through their conversations and how to win with their words.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Can we go through an example by chance?

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. I'll give you a classic one for all the listeners that've got young kids. So a couple of principles of negotiating, couple of the baseline things to get straight. Anytime you say or think the words "I want" or "I need," you're in a negotiation. "I want you to park here." "I need you to be here on time." "I want that report by Tuesday." "I need you to pick up the kids today." Anytime you hear or say the words "I want" or "I need," you're in a negotiation. Another principle is that the art of negotiation is letting someone else have your way. Can I repeat that?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yes. I was just about to ask you to.

Julia Ewert:
So the art of negotiation is letting someone else have your way.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay, walk me through that a bit more.

Julia Ewert:
So how this works is, we all want to do things by our own choice. No one wants to have their autonomy taken away from them. We want to have choice. So when you are told, "Kat, you have to do this for me and I need this report by in an hour's time," we then are on guard to some degree because someone's telling you what to do. No one really likes being told what to do. So the art of negotiating is letting someone else have your way.

Julia Ewert:
So the example I give here, I have two kids, they're quite young. And in the morning when we are leaving for school, whether it's five minutes away from leaving for school or half an hour, couple of times a week I'll try this on, let's say it's 10 minutes away from leaving for school. I'll say, "Hey guys, do you want to leave now for school? Or do you want to play for 10 more minutes?"

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
10 minutes.

Julia Ewert:
"We're going to play for 10 more minutes, mum." So I say, "Right, no worries. So that's fine, happy to let you do that. But what are you going to do when I say 10 minutes is up?" And they said, "We'll come downstairs and put our shoes on and we'll go straight away." So that is letting in me have my own way. They get choice, no one's under duress. They have chosen willingly exactly what I wanted them to choose. No tricks, because they choose.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So some of the listeners might be saying, "Well, isn't that manipulation?"

Julia Ewert:
They chose. I mean, manipulation would be more if I was trying to pull the wool over their eyes, if I was trying to get something out of them that's all me winning and all them losing. It's tricking someone.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Gotcha. Okay. So now how does the FBI tactics weave into this?

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. So interestingly, as I said, these are techniques that we have hiding in plain sight. So when the FBI are negotiating with terrorists or hostage takers, they use some fundamental principles that we can use every day. And one of them is, so the person that we're negotiating with, we call a partner. Not our enemy, not the other party, they are our negotiation partner. And they take a principle of, as terrible as it sounds from the onset, respecting the person who they're talking to. Because irrespective of a situation, something has brought that person to that point where they're about to do something terrible. Something's happened. They didn't just wake up and go, "I got nothing on today, here's what I'm going to do." So something has happened psychologically or emotionally that they're making a statement for whatever reason.

Julia Ewert:
So the negotiators come in and they try and find common ground and build trust, which is the same principles we use. When I started studying and researching all this, Kat, I learned, wow, well, if they can do that with some of the most serious criminals in the world, surely we can do that in business, or when we're talking to our children, when we're cutting business deals, or we are negotiating to buy something, surely we can use those same principles. And one fundamental principle's based on is trust. We have to establish trust with the person who we're speaking to, our negotiation partner.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Are there some example questions that you could either guide or ask to gain that trust?

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. So the questioning type that I've been teaching for a really long time is based on what I call high quality, open style questions. So there's two types of questions we can ask, close questions and open questions. Close questions are the ones that end in yes or no. And any question that ends in yes or no starts with any of these words: is, are, can, do, does, have, has, had, will, would, could, should. Any of those questions that start with those words end in yes or no. And they're not questions that give as much detail, so they're things like, for example, "Did you have a good day today?" "Yes." "Are you planning to spend Christmas day with family?" "Yes" or "no." Now we can elaborate and say, "Yes, I am. Here's what I'm doing," but by nature, these questions don't give us much.

Julia Ewert:
And when we ask a lot of close style questions, they are subconsciously received as, "Oh, this person, they don't really want to know." And when people are selling or negotiating, these are questions like what I call transactional questions. "Do you have a budget in mind?" "Are you planning to buy this today?" "Is this something you've been thinking about for a while?" "Do you have different things in mind?" They're just yes, no. But they don't give us much. So the trust building questions that we want to be using are what we call high quality, open style questions. These are questions that give us all the data, everything. And that's what we know we're asking them, sometimes we ask someone a question and think, wow, they just gave us so much information.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's like counseling.

Julia Ewert:
Yes.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's the same principles. Exactly the same.

Julia Ewert:
So they're the questions we want to be asking, and they start with: who, what, when, where, why, how, or my classic favorite, tell me. Any of those questions are designed to give us more dialogue. But even then, some of these questions, if they are open by nature, they don't give us much. So any of your listeners with kids, you ask them when they come home from school, "How was school today?" "Fine." "What did you learn?" "Nothing." So even though those are open questions, they give us nothing. So the key is to really build trust. Whether you're selling on negotiating, is to ask high quality, open style questions that are less about you and more about someone else.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So would you say a lot of negotiation is about perspective taking?

Julia Ewert:
Yes.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So you're standing or sitting or walking in someone else's shoes and trying to figure out... I guess the reason why I ask this is, when I'm working with corporates or people, before I start working with them, I try to figure out, okay, am I really the right person for the job? And the only way I can do this is by walking a mile in their shoes. Maybe I'm not, and it is a disservice for me to... Put money aside, even just wasting someone's time. I don't want to waste someone's time. So I guess that's perspective taking, in a way. How can I better understand your needs and want?

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. And we do that by asking good quality, high quality, open style questions. The other thing that goes wrong in sales conversations and negotiating... And in a minute remind me, I'll give you the difference between sales and negotiating too. But the other thing that goes wrong is that, I mentioned it earlier, that people are doing sales and negotiating by accident. They're just winging it. You won't win anything if you don't practice. So I spend, myself, four to six hours per week practicing negotiation, every week.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
How?

Julia Ewert:
I read a lot of books on negotiating. I listen a lot of podcasts on negotiating. But when I hear a good podcast, that's a good topic, by people I want to learn from, I kid you not, I'll listen to the same episode, 10, 15, 20 times over and over and over and over again. It's like watching a movie, sometimes you watch a movie two or three times and you go, "Oh my god, I totally missed that from the first episode or the first time I watched it. Now, I've see... Oh, that didn't make sense."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I do the same. I actually print off this transcript. So I listen to it while I'm walking once. And then I print off this... I should say Gabby, actually, prints off this [inaudible 00:25:58]. And then I highlight it while I listen to it. It's the best thing.

Julia Ewert:
Well, interesting that you say that, because that's how I read a book. I read a book with a highlighter.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Me too. Oh, god, mine are definitely not re-sellable.

Julia Ewert:
A hundred percent. And I wouldn't resell, I want to keep them. So I read all books. I'm a nerd for this topic, Kat, I love negotiating. Literally 99% of books I read are on negotiating and I read them all with highlighters.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
All right. So can we do a bit of a role play here. Let's say you are selling me a car with five wheels. I already have a car. I don't need a car.

Julia Ewert:
You know, every car has five wheels, though, don't you?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Oh, in... So let's say there's a new fandangle car that's just come on the market. You saw that it was on Facebook. Just looking, glancing at the car. So I walk in to the car dealership and there you are. I'm just looking. So how would you approach this?

Julia Ewert:
So I need just some [inaudible 00:26:59] questions here. You can't sell anything to anyone who isn't interested.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Gotcha.

Julia Ewert:
So that's always a baseline principle, you can never have the wrong conversation with the right person.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Oh, that's a good one.

Julia Ewert:
That's good, isn't it? And that's why sometimes, when people have this fear of the rejection, I say, "They're not rejecting you, man. They're rejecting the product or the offer. It's not right for them."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Or not the right time.

Julia Ewert:
Totally. So you can't have the wrong conversation with the right person. So if you are remotely interested, one of the other principles of negotiating is, I mentioned before that the art of negotiating is letting have someone else have your way. The other principle I talk about a lot is, if someone's talking to you, you already have something that they want.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Why?

Julia Ewert:
So the fact that you've stepped onto my car yard tells me you're interested. Because if you weren't, you wouldn't have turned up. Why are you there?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay. So I'm semi-interested...

Julia Ewert:
You could even be 1% on the spectrum of interested, but you've showed up. You've carved time in your day to turn up on my car yard.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So that I think is mind blowing because I think it's going to help so many people, if they're in a conversation with someone, if someone has submitted an inquiry to their website, even if it's at 1%, I think that I'm happy to hold onto that 1%.

Julia Ewert:
Hundred percent.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
That is evidence.

Julia Ewert:
Hold onto it. So what's fascinating about this, there's this repeatable process that I teach, Kat, along the way that in professional services, the research says no one buys from you in the first conversation. That's what the research says. 80% of sales are made after you send a proposal. So no one meets me for the first time and says, "Hmm, that sounds amazing, Julia. May I have your bank details now so I can give you all the money?" No one does that. I expect it's going to take two, three, four, sometimes 10 conversations with someone before they decide to commit. So the more conversations I had... So I've recently had lunch with somebody, second or third conversation in and I thought they're interested. And the biggest clue I have that they're interested is because they've booked to have lunch with me. They're not going to turn up to lunch to tell me no, because they'll cancel lunch, won't they?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah. Or they wouldn't have suggest... Or unless they're just really, really nice and they want to say no.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah, but that's unlikely. So one of the first principles is, for all the listeners, if someone is talking to you, you already have something that they want to some degree.

Julia Ewert:
Okay, back to the car yard. Right, you're walking on my car yard.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Right, so I'm looking at the car with five wheels and I'm thinking... And I start to open the door, look in, glance in, so you come on over and say, obviously, name, all those kind of details, let's get them out of the way. And I say, "You know, I've sort of heard about these cars with these five wheels, but I'm not sold on them. I'm really happy with mine. But I just thought I'd come in and have a peek."

Julia Ewert:
Oh, Kat, you making this too easy for me.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
All right. It might be easy to you, but definitely not to a lot of other people.

Julia Ewert:
That's right. So to the trained negotiator [Ewert 00:30:15], you have made that too easy for me.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay, why is it easy to... Can you help us...

Julia Ewert:
Because you've turned up to begin with and you told me you're not sold. You're partly sold because you're here. And you've done some research, so there's something about this car that you actually want.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay. So where do you take me from there?

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. So I would say, assume I don't know your name because you don't need to know names when you're selling cars, but what brings you here today then?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I'm just really looking, one of my friends got them, but they're not really happy with it.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. Tell me some more about that.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Oh, well it's using too much gas, too much petrol. They've noticed that their petrol bills have gone up.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah, that's interesting. What else have you done? Sounds like you've done some great research here.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Oh, well actually I've just sort of really heard it from them. I haven't done a lot of online research yet.

Julia Ewert:
Okay. I'm curious. You've carved out some time in your day to come and have a look at the car...

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay, so interesting. So you're sort of bee lining around that gas question, so you're not really focusing on it.

Julia Ewert:
No.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
No. Okay. See, that's really important to... Because I noticed it, but I think a lot of other people wouldn't have.

Julia Ewert:
I'm banking it. So in this situation, at some point I'm going to ask you at some point, "Hey, what other concerns do you have about this car?"

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Gotcha.

Julia Ewert:
I'm also going to ask things like, "Hey, what do you think you like about it so far? Why is that important to you?"

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Glass half full rather than glass half empty.

Julia Ewert:
I'm doing both. I want to do both. So I'll be asking you a subset of questions, high quality, open style questions that are designed to get you to give me all the data. So I'll ask things in no particular order, and if I was to rapid fire them at you now, Kat, they would be questions like: What do you like about the car? What have you heard about it?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's [crosstalk 00:32:03].

Julia Ewert:
Yeah, yeah. I would, as I said, if I was going to rapid fire them, I'd say things like: Tell me what you do like about the car. What are you driving now? Tell me what you don't like about that car. How long have you been thinking about potentially getting a new car? Why is today the right day to have a look at it? What other alternatives are you looking at here?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So what's the reason... How do you use this data?

Julia Ewert:
Okay, so every question I ask, I am weighing someone up on a scale. And this scale is what I call the motivation and capability scale. I'm trying to work out how motivated you are to buy and how capable you are to buy.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Ooh, okay. Walk me through this. Motivated, I understand. Capable, is that only money?

Julia Ewert:
No.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah, I was going to say...

Julia Ewert:
It's often money, but not always. And so capable is timing. So if we move away from cars and let's talk about someone that might be selling professional services, selling coaching. So if a coaching consultant is talking to a prospective customer or prospective client, they try to work out, are they motivated to get coaching? So are they saying the right things, asking the right questions, making the right noises? Do they seem enthusiastic? Do they seem interested?

Julia Ewert:
But that's not enough. So they need to check if they're capable and capable is yes, can they afford it? It's do they have the capacity? Because you can't just have one coaching session and think that you've arrived, you need to invest time in the coaching. So do they have the capability to invest in the time? So the motivation is one part of the scale, capability is another. So it's are capable to move forward and buy the car, whatever it is...

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Buy the services.

Julia Ewert:
Buy the services, invest, whatever it is. Doesn't mean today, but at some point. And I'll give a couple of examples. So it's not enough to have someone that's highly motivated, but that's not capable. The example I give, it would be fun to drive a Lamborghini. And I'm not a car enthusiast, but if I went to... Let's say I was enthusiastic about a Lamborghini, I would go to the dealership, ask all the questions, I'd make all the right noises, say all the right things. I would be excited. But there's obviously going to be one blocker for me driving that car off a lot, is I don't have that much money to drop on a car. If I did, I probably wouldn't. But that blocks my capability.

Julia Ewert:
Similarly, if I am offering a particular service to a company and they seem excited, but they go... So for example, if I was talking to a company about doing my sales program, which is designed to help them convert more deals, they could say, "This sounds amazing and exactly what we need, Julia, but we're actually at capacity now with clients. Motivation high, sounds amazing. We would love to do this, but if we did your program, that would bring us more clients, which actually causes a problem." So they are not capable, but they love it.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
And how do you know that someone isn't just blowing smoke up your ass?

Julia Ewert:
Give me an example.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Wow, this sounds amazing, but can I contact you next year? Or when you know that they're trying to put you down nicely, but they're acting.

Julia Ewert:
So this is called objection handling. And some of the techniques that we use in negotiating techniques here. So when we're getting what we call an objection, it's too expensive, it's not the right time, I just want to think about it, the market's going to change, I'll see what happens when this happens. These are all objections, right? So when we receive an objection, the worst thing we can be doing, which is similar to what you did a moment ago with the car, you said, "Oh, it chews up too much petrol." I just bank it, but I don't address it right now, because you'll think of something else. That would not stop you, but if the car was that bad, it wouldn't be on the market. So a lot of them are...

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Good point.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah, right?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I'm going to take notes. I'm going to listen to this back and be like, "Ooh, that was a nugget."

Julia Ewert:
So when you receive these objections, what we want to do is stay engaged. So when someone's, if they're saying to me, "This is too expensive, Julia," or "It's not the right time," or "The budget gets renewed at July 1 next year," or "We're too busy right now, call us in the new year." If any of those things... I use a framework that I teach to move through those. And I say... So for example, they're throwing out that it's, I don't know, too expensive or whatever it is, I say, "Oh, well, Kat, if you're open to it, should we spend some time talking about price? Price is actually really important. I'm not weird about price, don't you be weird about price, but we should definitely talk about this. Could we troubleshoot it for a few minutes, please?"

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay. Walk me through... Everyone... It's 99.9% is... The price is always a bit of a stickler. So how would you... Okay, I say, "Yeah, I actually love that."

Julia Ewert:
So no one's going to say no to that.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yes.

Julia Ewert:
So back on what I mentioned before about the reason I stand for what I do, is I want people to be able to use sales techniques, building trust. When you do this stuff right, it's really liberating because you get to tell the truth. You get to say exactly what's on your mind and serve it up in a really respectful, conversational way. So when I say something like, "Well yeah, we should talk about price. Price is really important. Are you open? Do you mind if we talk, spend a few minutes to talk this through, I'm not weird about price. Don't you be weird about price either, but do you want to talk it through?" No one has ever said "No, I actually do not want to talk about this." No one says no. So they say, "Yeah, we can talk about it." I say, "Okay, cool. That's great. So do you mind if I ask you, Kat, pricing aside for the moment, and I definitely will talk about pricing, what other concerns might you have about moving forward with this?"

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Am I going to get value out of it? It's a lot of time to invest and you know what? All your testimonials are great, but how do I know it's going to work for me?

Julia Ewert:
Sure. What else? What other concerns have you got?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
That's probably the biggest one. And then price.

Julia Ewert:
So price and the fact that you're not sure it will work.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Julia Ewert:
Got it. Okay. All right then, well, can I ask you, because I want to give you solutions for these sorts of things, because clearly you still have a problem that needs solving, right?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Julia Ewert:
So which of those would be your major concern that you want to talk about first?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Am I going to get value for money?

Julia Ewert:
Got it.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
What's my ROI?

Julia Ewert:
Right. Okay. Which is still kind of price related, right?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It is.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah, okay, all right.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
But it's also time. The time I need to invest in your program and also, am I going to actually be able to apply all the techniques, is basically is the time and the money that I invest going to actually give me what I need?

Julia Ewert:
Got it. Okay. So let's just make up a figure. I don't know, let's say we're talking about $10,000 here, I'm just making up [inaudible 00:38:43]. Okay. So yes, Kat, we'll definitely talk through whether this is guaranteed to work essentially. And you said the price is quite high. Can I ask you if you don't mind, what price were you expecting?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I was expecting more around the 3,000 to 5,000.

Julia Ewert:
Love it. But to say play hard, play hard. Don't hand this to me on a platter, make me work for it. Okay, so let's say $3,000 you were thinking and I'm coming at 10.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yes. Only because I've spoken to someone else and that's where they come in.

Julia Ewert:
Great. I'm you said that because I was just about to ask you and how did you come up with 3,000. Okay. All right. Well, so this is a $7,000 difference. Just hypothetically, if I was priced the same as this other person, hypothetically, who would you prefer to work with?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
How do you find that people answer that question?

Julia Ewert:
Answer the question. Have you never heard it before?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
God, what would I do in that situation? I would probably deflect, I would probably say I'm still thinking about it. That's what I would say.

Julia Ewert:
That's okay, you can say whatever you feel. Because I guess what I wanted to try and do is help you get this across the line to solve the problem that you need. So by me asking if, hypothetically, I was priced the same, because even...

Julia Ewert:
If I step out of the practice session for a moment, logic tells me you probably would choose me. Logic. Because if you weren't interested, you would've bailed out by now, and I've been asking this question for a very long time and no one's ever said not me. And I teach people to ask this thing and I'm not trying to change the situation here either. But something tells me that you do have some interest in working with me here.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah, because I guess they would've probably walked themself out of the conversation earlier to that point, likely. I think a lot of times first impressions do do a lot, so I think by then people would be like, "Oh I got to go pick up the kids."

Julia Ewert:
Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Or something like that.

Julia Ewert:
So I would ask and say, "Hypothetically, if I was priced the same, may I ask you who you would prefer to move forward with or who you would still entertain my working with."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I am leaning towards working with you.

Julia Ewert:
Okay. Hey, thanks for saying that, that's really nice. Why is that the case?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's a bit of a gut feel.

Julia Ewert:
Okay. And why else?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I can't put my finger on it right now, it's just a gut feeling.

Julia Ewert:
That's okay.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I go with my gut a lot.

Julia Ewert:
That is fine. Can I ask, what would it mean if I wasn't able to change my price, Kat? Is this a walk away?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
This would be a walk away moment, yes.

Julia Ewert:
Okay. I just wanted to ask. Yeah, it's an interesting one because we want to talk through the price and we want to solve the problem that you're looking to solve. And interestingly, whether you're comparing me to something that's $3,000, there's actually lots of free options around. Because the reason anyone would talk to me is they want to make more sales or negotiate better. So some people only talk to me for a distinct scenario. So let's assume you want to make more sales, right?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yep.

Julia Ewert:
If you're comparing my offer to a $3,000 offer, there are actually even cheaper ones around. You could go, and you've been in business a long time, Kat, making some assumptions here. You could go and buy millions of books and spend 20 bucks on a book. You could spend hours Googling for free and that's free, "how to make more sales," "how to negotiate better." But something tells me, even if there was a free option available to you, you're telling me you'd still rather invest something here. So you're telling me a $20 book, essentially, either you've tried or isn't an option for you.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I see where you're going. Because in my mind, as soon as you said Google or a book, I'm like, "I ain't got no time for that." Because I know even if I buy the book, and I'd probably point to all the books on the shelf and say, "Well actually, I have all those books."

Julia Ewert:
I have all the books.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Can I ask you a question? If someone were to say, "Well, I'm thinking about this $3,000 or offer," and let's say the offer was 10, one of the things I would say is, "Well, why don't we talk about the differences in the offer?" Is that a good way to go about it?

Julia Ewert:
Not necessarily. There's many ways to skin the cat. When you do this, it's tricky ground because you may not be comparing the same thing, which will come out in that conversation. But what you're trying to do is not compare, well that does this and I do this, and that does that and I do this. Because when you start doing that, indirectly what we're saying to somebody is "You're wrong. You haven't understood why I'm $10,000. So then you're wrong." And we're not saying it directly, but subconsciously, that's the message.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I can see that.

Julia Ewert:
We're saying, "You haven't understood, which means you are wrong and I'm right." And we tend to start those sentence with two words, we tend to say "yes, but." So whenever someone objects to price or timing, we say, "Oh, yes, but if you don't do something now, I'll run out of stock." Or "Yes, but if you don't place your order prior to the end of the financial year, then this will happen." "Yes, but my price is going up," whatever it is. Anything that starts with "Yes, but" is going to likely receive in response a "yes, but." "Yes, but I understand, Kat, but that's still really expensive." "Yes, but the reason my price is this is because I have this proprietary software," or whatever it is. "Yes, but I understand you have the software. I just can't afford that." And it only takes three or four "yes, but"-s and you are a hop, skip, and a jump away from conflict.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Brilliant. I have this literally concreted in my mind.

Julia Ewert:
So when someone objects to you, the best thing you can do is this.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Listen.

Julia Ewert:
Do nothing, take a few seconds, pause and say something like, "Huh. Tell me some more about that." And by doing that, we do a few things. We buy ourselves some time to think. We also inject space in the conversation, which is the strategic silence. Space makes the conversation calm. Calm allows us to think, because when we do the opposite of that, which is throw out a "yes, but," and you give me a "yes, but," and suddenly we're "yes, but"-ing everywhere, and now we're debating...

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Point scoring.

Julia Ewert:
It's not helpful. And it leads to us, I said, subconsciously going, "We don't agree. You're wrong. I'm right." It doesn't help us. So we're trying to inject space in there because it slows the conversation down. The opposite of that is playing for speed. Speed puts under pressure, pressure makes us say or do dumb things.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I always feel like speed always is like when you're drunk and you just say, "Whoops, shouldn't have said that." And this is when you are in the shower later and you're going over the conversation in your head over and over and over again and saying, "Oh, I should have said that. I should have said this." It's like when you're having an argument with someone, you think about one thing and then in the shower, five minutes later, you think about a thousand things.

Julia Ewert:
Oh, we are all smarter after the event. Because at the event, we're playing for speed and speed makes us say and do dumb things. We say something we ordinarily would never say because the pressure is making us do something different. So if we, and this is a practiced skill, it is a practiced skill for when someone objects, for two seconds, to say nothing.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I always teach also, if you are uncomfortable with silence, ask "Wow, can I have a couple of minutes to think about that?"

Julia Ewert:
Yes!

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
And my partner is Croatian, he can sell ice to Eskimos. I mean, he was literally born... When he was a newborn, he came out with a briefcase in his hand when he was at zero days old. This guy can sell anything and he's very good. He doesn't even need time because he's so experienced. Whereas I'm like, "I got to think of something here." And he knows that I always take a breath, so I always go... Under my breath obviously. But I always squeeze my wrists where someone doesn't see them and then I relax them because that actually tells my brain, "Okay, I need a moment, and I need to relax."

Julia Ewert:
That's a great technique.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah, it's a mindfulness technique and it's something that I always naturally do now because of practice. I always squeeze and then release, that's what I tell myself. And I also use the word empty, which is a really weird word. I always say "empty." And what I'm subconsciously telling my brain to do is empty, empty any of those yucky, aggressive, point scoring thoughts and think logically. So how do I turn a reaction into a response? And the way I do that is through patience.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. And interestingly, even in this situation where we are talking to somebody who seems to have all the answers, even if they are a great salesperson and an excellent negotiator, that doesn't necessarily mean they're bringing out the best in the person they're talking to. Not many people like to be on the other end of an excellent salesperson.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Well, he got me to fall in love with him after a year of chasing me.

Julia Ewert:
Amazing.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So he did... I know he's going to be listening to this-

Julia Ewert:
He's a one on a million, then.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Oh my god...

Julia Ewert:
That's great.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
He definitely is. You won, Angel, you won. I've said this many times. But I love this. I think silence... Why do you think people are uncomfortable with silence?

Julia Ewert:
It makes them feel awkward, and they view silence as something negative. So when silence often comes up... So I'll give an example around that price one, because some people are weird about price. Price makes people feel uncomfortable, and this is a practiced thing, to get better at this stuff. There is no such thing, apart from your one in a million situation, as a natural salesperson or a natural negotiator, these are learnt skills. I'm a learnt salesperson and a learnt negotiator because I practiced an awful lot.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Do you think you would be as good at negotiating a sale if you didn't believe in the product or service that you were selling?

Julia Ewert:
No. Definitely not. I believe that people buy from me for two reasons. They buy, first of all, the conviction with what I have about what I sell and how I explain it, when we get to slow the conversation down. Then they buy the program that I sell, or this sales system that I teach. But I believe half, and I'm told this time and time again. People, what you before when were doing the role play, they'd say, "Oh, I don't know this'll really work" or "Is it guaranteed to work?" I always say, "Nothing's guaranteed to work. I can give you all the tools, but you could be crap at it. You could learn tennis from Serena Williams, it doesn't mean you'll win Wimbledon."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
That's a good one.

Julia Ewert:
Half of the confidence around is the practice gives us confidence because the competence breeds confidence. When we get good at something, we are like, "Ha, actually all right at this." So these are learnt skills. Absolutely, they're learnt skills.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay. So what if you're in... You're service, obviously, based. So you're doing the program and you're noticing that people are just not practicing it. And then they come to you and they say, "Well, this isn't working." How do you address that? Because god knows everyone wants some something very easy, don't they? They just want to read a book and be like, "[you want this shit 00:50:28]."

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. You're probably asking the wrong person because the way my... And this will come across, the irony of... The irony is I sell sales, which is weird. My stuff works.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
That's belief, there you go.

Julia Ewert:
My program is based around, they have to lift the weights. They have to do the work. So, it's not a lecture. They have to practice. They don't get through it if they don't practice.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I would say that about mindset. It's funny because I would say, if you want to have a great ass, you go to the gym and you do the squats. If you want to have a great brain, you got to do the same thing. You can't just read a book and pretend like you're Gandhi...

Julia Ewert:
Yep, do the work.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
... The next day. It's the work. But do you find that the world is sort of going into, I want things easy?

Julia Ewert:
Oh yes. I get asked all the time, "What's the one thing I need to do?" There is no one thing! Plot twist for all the listeners, Kat, there is no one thing. You need to do all the things. There is no one thing. I've got clients that have said to me, "Ah, Julia, I saw this thing on Instagram and it was a $29 sales course and it didn't work." And I go, "You think?"

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It doesn't work unless you do the work.

Julia Ewert:
There is shortcut. There is no shortcut. So this is the same as when I talk about people that genuinely want to get better in sales and negotiating. I do a survey on people before I begin with them and I ask them, "Scale of one to ten, how good do you want to be?"

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Woo.

Julia Ewert:
Everyone always picks seven or eight. And I go, "Well, that's good, because I think I'm about a seven or an eight." And then that makes them go, "Hmm." And then I say things like, "So I've been doing this for 25 years, I spend four to six hours a week upscaling, going to the sales and negotiation gym, myself, to get fit. So what are you prepared to do? You told me you want to be a seven or eight." Some people say ten, I say, "Great. What are you prepared to do to be ten?" And when you talk them through, they eventually go, "Well, maybe I just want to be like a..."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Four.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. Because they don't want to do the work. Because I've been doing this for 25 years, it's my hobby, it's my greatest area of interest. I spend four to six hours a week on this stuff. That's just my own time upscaling, practicing, doing the things. People don't want to do that. So there is no shortcut. That is the heartbreaking twist for any of your listeners, there is no shortcut.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
For anything.

Julia Ewert:
But the interesting thing is that if you're in a startup, then you've got to learn to do what is the most important thing that you can do with the capital that you've got to invest, which means you need to do everything yourself. And I too, many years ago, was a startup doing all the things myself with what little I had. And you say yes to everything just to get the revenue in the door. Whereas when time gets on, if you do all the things the right way, you get to a position where you can choose, and you can decline those that you don't want to work with and go after some bigger opportunities. But that doesn't happen by accident.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
No. I would say that don't expect 100% result if you put 50% effort in.

Julia Ewert:
And isn't that just so logical?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yeah.

Julia Ewert:
But we are in this world of, "I want the quick and fast way." And I said, "There is a quick and fast way." So I have clients that have big price negotiations that go on and they say, "Will you give me some extra stuff to... Will you help me some extra to get this right?" I say, "Yes. But there's a few things that you need to do first. So I have some resources." I say, "I have one podcast or I have one resource for example, you need to read this or listen to this six times. Once you've listened to it six times, come back. Then I'll teach you the next part, because this will show me if you're prepared to put in the work. Because if you're not prepared to do that, I'm not prepared to put in my time."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So you drive a hard bargain in a way.

Julia Ewert:
Totally.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Absolutely. It's almost like you're vetting them in a way.

Julia Ewert:
But I know this stuff, I know the formula to making it work, so I too, Kat, have known that you can't wing this stuff. There is no shortcut.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So do you think, getting back to your secret in regards to, I'm never going to be enough, let's just say that, and then you put in this copious amount of effort, maybe we can go down and, is there anything that you've never admitted to anyone in regards to your fears of not getting farther ahead or?

Julia Ewert:
Oh, yes. There are times where I feel invisible.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Why is that? What makes you feel invisible?

Julia Ewert:
I genuinely believe it just comes from that background of being bullied, people told me I would amount to nothing. Even now, I run a pretty successful company, I've got fabulous clients, I've just this year semi-retired my husband, so he works part-time at best. I went to uni as a grown up thinking maybe I'm not smart enough to get... So I've done some things, and even years ago, my mum asked me something like, "What do you think is my greatest worry for you, Julia?" And I said, "I think that I will never be content."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
That's a big statement.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. I just... I think I've still got this, "I'm not enough" or "I'm inadequate."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So it's interesting that you can sell ice to Eskimos, but you can't sell yourself that you are enough.

Julia Ewert:
So interestingly, there's two parts. So in my company, in the knowledge that I have in sales and negotiating, I can hold my own like nobody's business. If there was a sales and negotiating Olympics, I'd be right up there. I know my content, I've been doing this for 25 years. I don't think there's a sales scenario that I've never come across, that I don't actually have a strategy for. I truly believe I've seen it all, and I have the experience to solve it. But outside of that, I have this insecurity of, "Well, I'm not enough" or "I'm invisible," and I'm always searching for the belonging.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So with invisibility, are there certain situations where you feel more invisible than others? Or is it constant?

Julia Ewert:
No, it's not constant. Probably social.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Social. So what kind of situations, as in what kind of social events? For example, is it different with family than it is with a networking event?

Julia Ewert:
No, it's probably non-business things, actually. So if it's friends I'm hanging out with, I can often feel like I've made a point on something and then two minutes later, someone else makes the same point and people go, "Oh my god, that's amazing." And my brain goes, "Am I not here? Did I not just say that exact thing?" I notice this a bit, but also we tend to notice what we're looking for.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I was just about to say.

Julia Ewert:
But that does give me that feeling, that little pang of, "Oh, I'm not noticed or I'm not enough."

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
And what's so bad about that? About not being noticed?

Julia Ewert:
It would come back to, I think, what these messages were when I was a kid.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So you wouldn't belong.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Okay. And if you don't belong, what's bad about that?

Julia Ewert:
No one dies from not belonging. But it's the feeling.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's not a great feeling.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. Yeah. It's the feeling of... And it's funny because in the business world, I don't have imposter syndrome. I've never felt that. I've never felt that. But this is same spectrum, maybe, I don't know. But I know I belong in the business world because I can hold my own in that space. But yeah, it's the other side of things, it's more the... Yeah, I don't know, Kat. I don't know if I can put my finger on it.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I think for me, if I can interject, there's two things. One as in, from my own point of view, would be, I don't want to waste my life because of my rough childhood. I almost took my life once and I never want to waste it again. So for me, not belonging means that I'm not making an impact. And when it comes to impact, I always think about my dad. My dad is my guiding light. He is everything to me and beyond. Our relationship got bit severed for many different reasons, and because of that, we are now stuck with each other. We just cannot be separated. And for me, I want to do well for my dad. The most important thing in my life is... My dad's proud of me, I could be a prostitute and he'd still be proud of me. It's nothing to do with that.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
But for me, it's doing the right thing because I love my dad so much. There's nothing, no one on this earth that I love more than my dad. So for me, that's my sense. When I get that yucky feeling, I can always relate it to one of those two different things. So if I feel like I don't belong in a situation or when I feel like I've hurt someone, and when I say hurt someone, someone doesn't like me, god forbid, when I've made the incorrect answer, I always relate it back, I wonder if I'm disappointing my dad. And then I go through the questions and I say, of course not, my dad is always proud of me, and that's how I am resilient. I bounce back. So that's my little mental process. It's like a math equation. Like, yes, no, do I go [inaudible 01:00:10] this? So, I mean... That's after a shitload of therapy.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. You've done the work. Nice job, Kat.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Done the work. Now it doesn't make it easier, it doesn't mean that when I don't feel good about myself or when I feel I don't belong, it's not like I sing through that shit. It's still really, really painful, but I get through it quicker. So I guess when it comes to belonging, when I work with people, I say, "Well, yeah, that should feel uncomfortable. Not feeling like you belong should feel like shit. And that's okay. That's okay."

Julia Ewert:
Are you familiar with Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages?

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Yes.

Julia Ewert:
My love language is words of affirmation. And I know that about myself, I've known that for a long time. So I will eat for a month off a good compliment, not a rubbish "You've got nice shoes" or "Your hair looks pretty." Hell, I would stab you in the eye if you say that, I think that's not a compliment. But a genuine, "Hey Julia, that scenario that you helped us with last week with that customer saved us this much money," and "Oh my god, I can't believe we're working with you. You've got such great results for us." I will eat off that for months.

Julia Ewert:
Or my husband, if he buys me flowers, I'm like, "Flowers are nice, but they'll be dead in three days." But if he gives me a compliment, then affirms me in that words of affirmation. "Oh Julia, you've had such so much on this week, it's so great, you signed up those extra clients. Wow, I listened to this podcast that you did," or "I saw something you published," or "You're doing great." And so my husband also works away once a month, he works FIFO. So he's on the mines and we don't have any family here, "And you're keeping the kids going while I'm away. So you're just doing such a great job." So I will eat off that for ages.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So what if I were to come in, my big arm were to snatch away your job. And I were to tell you, "You can never ever teach negotiation or sales again." How would people affirm you?

Julia Ewert:
I feel like I would be nothing.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So that's your armor?

Julia Ewert:
Yeah, I feel like this affirms me. If you were to take that away and I've never ever considered that scenario, but I feel like that makes me. It makes me visible, because I know I've got some great stuff. I know I'm good at what I do. I get great clients. I know my stuff works. So that's the affirmation for me.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
It's very precarious way to live if you only feel like you're visible doing one thing. Call it the self worth pie, if you only put one ingredient into a pie, if that ingredient runs out, you can't make pies anymore.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. I love what I do though. So I'm not doing it under duress. I find it fascinating, I find it interesting.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
So when you see great athletes, the most important thing for them to do to transition into retirement... And I'm talking about the greats, the sports stars, the car drivers and so forth. Where they go downhill very quickly during their retirement is if they put all their eggs in one basket, meaning "I am only me if I race cars," "I'm only me if I play tennis."

Julia Ewert:
Fascinating.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
And so it's the same with us mere humans during retirement, where you see health declines is specifically after people step down from their roles because they feel like they're not a purpose anymore. And this is when not only mental declines happen, but also physical. And so my challenge out to you, and I'm going to sell the shit out of this, and you have to practice it, is start to think about what makes you you without your armor. And this is something that I've asked many people to do. And It's a scary process.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Because that's when true growth happens, is when you can get naked.

Julia Ewert:
Yeah. That's really insightful.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
I will send my bill in the mail. It's $10,000.

Julia Ewert:
But I only have enough for $3,000.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Well, bitch, I'm worth it. That's what I would say.

Julia Ewert:
That's really interesting.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Well, I would love to hear how that goes because this is a shower thought. This is when you're having... The hot water is coming down on you, and this is for the audience as well, is imagine what would my life look like if I couldn't do what I truly loved.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
On that note, I would like to say, thank you so much. I'm already going through my head going like, "Ooh, I can use that. I can use that." Now, before we close off, where can people find you? What's the best way to get in contact with you?

Julia Ewert:
Thank you, Kat, I hang out in one place. You will only find me on social media on LinkedIn.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Great.

Julia Ewert:
And I'm simply Julia Ewert, E-W-E-R-T. Julia Ewert, The Negotiator. And my website is juliaewert.com.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Great. We're going to put all those links and more. Thank you so much, and I'm sure people are going to be contacting you for help, for sure. So thank you so much for your time and also for your candor and your positive you.

Julia Ewert:
This has been fascinating, thank you, Kat, I appreciate taking the time.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
All right, thank you.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
What a great conversation, didn't I tell you? It was just so unique and also learning about Julia's past and how that influenced what she does today. And also, I got to tell you that speaking to Julia afterwards, and we've been really staying in communication for the past several weeks and she's even made some, I guess you would say, life realizations, those light bulb moments, from this podcast. And maybe you have too, that sometimes when we talk about these, I guess, surface things, like the business and the this and that, I think sometimes they're almost like a lock and key model that sometimes these sort of surface conversations unlock a different way of looking at ourselves. And I hope really that this conversation that seemed like it was about sales was really helping you learn more about the self.

Dr Katherine Iscoe:
Now, if you did like this podcast and you want to help us out, then why not review? If you want to leave us a five star, I'm happy with that because this podcast is now in the top 10% of podcasts globally, and this is because of you guys. I can't do this without you, so please share to anyone you think that might benefit from this podcast and stay tuned for our next one. And like I always say, really never forget that every day is your chance to shine. Thank you for listening.